I was talking to my old man during the game tonight, about the Braun extension, about Mark Attanasio talking about how he genuinely believes the Brewers have a legit shot at signing Prince, and about how cool it is to have a guy like Braun locked up for most of his career in that beautiful blue!

Anyway, he posed the question, Prince and Braun vs Molitor and Yount?

The premise was this, they cost the same, they're both young, say 26 years old like Prince and Braun for continuity in the argument. Which pair would you rather have?

Now a little back story, my old man and I always argued about who was better, Molitor or Yount. Molitor ws clearly the superior hitter as a whole, although Yount was obviously great. Molitor conversely was a pretty damn good fielder, but was not on Yount's level. A very solid 3rd basemen, 2nd basemen and he would have been a helluva SS IMO had it not have been for Robin Yount.


Molitor has a WAR over 4.9 9 different times in his career.
Yount had a WAR over 4.5 8 different times.
Braun has been over 4.5 2 times thus far, and is certainly headed for a 3rd.
Prince has been over 4.5 2 different times thus far and is likewise headed for a 3rd.

162 game averages are as follows;
Yount- .285/.342/.430 .772 OPS 178 H's 93 R's 33 DBL 7 TPL 14 HR 80 RBI 15 SB 6 CS
Molitor- .306/.369/.448 .817 OPS 200 H's 108 R 37 DBL's 7 TPL 14 HR 79 RBI 30 SB
Braun-309/368/558 926 OPS 200 H 113 R 41 DBL 6 TPL 36 HR 115 RBI 17 SB 6 CS
Prince- .281/.386/.536 .922 OPS 161 H 92 R 32 DBL 2 TPL 37 HR 105 RBI 3 SB 2 CS



So as we all know, Braun and Prince are clearly superior hitters through their age 26/27 seasons than Molitor and Yount were over the course of their entire careers. Though it should be noted, both Molitor and Yount had superior seasons past the ages of Prince and Braun, namely the 1982 season that Robin Yount had.



So simply put, if you could have Robin Yount, a 26 year old SS with the reasonable expectation that he'd be able to stay at SS, but knowing what type of hitter he'd be AND Paul Molitor, again with the reasonable expectation that he'd stay healthy and be a 3rd basemen/2nd basemen for the duration of his career would you chose THAT over Ryan Braun as a sub-par LF'er with the reasonable expectation that he'd stay there over the course of HIS career and Prince Fielder with the reasonable expectation that he'd likely end up being a very sub-par 1st basemen as his career went on.


Paul Molitor leading off and playing 2nd/3rd and Robin Yount hitting 2nd and playing SS vs Braun hitting 3rd and playing LF and Prince batting cleanup and playing 1st.



Personally, if it's me, I STILL think you've gotta go with Yount and Molitor just because of the massive defensive upgrades, and namely because of Robin Yount playing SS and becoming one of the first true offensive SS's in the last couple generations. Prior to him(and Ripken) SS was almost entirely a defensive position. He came along and you see guys who'd have otherwise been moved off of SS and over to 3rd because of their size all the sudden stick.

Also, for another little twist, if you had to pick two of them, which two? Again, Molitor was my favorite player of all time, and I think he gets 4,000 hits if he stays healthy, and perhaps gets Rose's all time hit record, but I think here I'd go with Yount and Braun.


And just to get a little more pointless, just IMAGINE if we had Molitor and Yount on this team?
1-Paul Molitor 3B
2-Robin Yount SS
3-Ryan Braun LF
4-Prince Fielder 1B
5-Rickie Weeks 2B
6-Corey Hart RF
7-Carlos Gomez CF
8-Jon Lucroy C

That's a VERY good defensive team and a lineup that rivals any lineup of the last 50 years in baseball quite frankly.

The difference in value between a good defensive SS/3B combo and a poor defensive 1B/LF combo is too big to take Braun and Fielder. I was born too late to watch Molitor and Yount so I don't have an "eye test" to rely on, but Total Zone has them both as decent to great defensively (at least while Yount was a shortstop). Braun and Fielder are certainly more capable of scoring runs without the rest of the roster's help, so there are situations where Braun and Fielder might be more valuable. Overall though, I think it's gotta be Yount and Molitor.

Yount and Molitor.. and its not even close in my mind.

BrainDed wrote:Yount and Molitor.. and its not even close in my mind.

That's pretty strong. I obviously agree that you have to go with Yount and Molitor, but Braun and Prince are two pretty special talents as well.

Now I posed the question as they're both 26 and you're assuming that Yount will stay at SS and Molitor will be healthy and stay at 3rd defensively.

How about you know that Yount's value will be diminished(not that much as CF is still a premium position) and Molitor will be injured and end up a DH? I'd imagine you'd still go with Yount and Prince, but...it's gotta be at least somewhat of a difficult choice, doesn't it?

It's easier to find a good defensive SS and 3rd basemen than it is to find a guy who's likely to hit .300 with 400+ HR's and possibly get 3,000 hits and a 1st basemen capable of averaging 40-45 HR's a year.

Fan174 wrote:How about you know that Yount's value will be diminished(not that much as CF is still a premium position) and Molitor will be injured and end up a DH? I'd imagine you'd still go with Yount and Prince, but...it's gotta be at least somewhat of a difficult choice, doesn't it?

No its not tough for me, the difference in defense is huge. Prince should be a DH now and if we were in the AL, Braun could end up being a DH.

BrainDed wrote:

Fan174 wrote:How about you know that Yount's value will be diminished(not that much as CF is still a premium position) and Molitor will be injured and end up a DH? I'd imagine you'd still go with Yount and Prince, but...it's gotta be at least somewhat of a difficult choice, doesn't it?

No its not tough for me, the difference in defense is huge. Prince should be a DH now and if we were in the AL, Braun could end up being a DH.

Fair enough. I just happen to think they're great enough offensively that it's at least a debate. As I said though, I'd go with Yount and Molitor.

If Prince was 3 inches taller I think his Defense at 1st would be a lot easier to stomach as he does have pretty good range and hands.

With Braun....I just don't know about him. Yount talked about when he moved to the OF that he hated playing LF and thought he'd never be a good defender out there until they moved him to CF and he could see the ball a lot better. I wonder if a similar change would happen with Braun. Not that we'll find out, but just trying to figure out what the fuck his deal is, he's too athletic to not be a good defender.

Fan174 wrote:If Prince was 3 inches taller I think his Defense at 1st would be a lot easier to stomach as he does have pretty good range and hands.

I somewhat agree. I think Prince is pretty damn good at fielding batted balls. His downfall is playing 1rst base and all that comes with it.

Taking out defense, I'll have Molitor hitting in front of Braun, please. My 2 favorite Brewers back-to-back.

RyGuy wrote:Taking out defense, I'll have Molitor hitting in front of Braun, please. My 2 favorite Brewers back-to-back.

Yeah, how about Weeks/Molitor/Braun for a 1-3? Braun would get a lot of R'sBI!

I'm old enough to clearly remember the Molitor/Yount days.

I'd take Molitor/Yount in a HEARTBEAT over Braun/Prince........The defense is just too much of an advantage. Tulowitzki/Longoria would be a decent comparison, and I'd rather have them over Braun/Prince. But, Braun/Prince is a GREAT consolation prize.

But, it's nice to have had both of those combinations in my lifetime.

bobadgers wrote:I'm old enough to clearly remember the Molitor/Yount days.

I'd take Molitor/Yount in a HEARTBEAT over Braun/Prince........The defense is just too much of an advantage. Tulowitzki/Longoria would be a decent comparison, and I'd rather have them over Braun/Prince. But, Braun/Prince is a GREAT consolation prize.

But, it's nice to have had both of those combinations in my lifetime.

That's really pushing it. Molitor, though a favorite of mine wasn't anywhere NEAR Longoria defensively, and Yount..as good as he was, was not the defender Tulo was.


And actually...looking at fangraphs and baseball reference, they both have Yount as being pretty damn bad defensively. Kinda surprising. GREAT in '81, good in '82, well below average other than that. In fact, Braun compares as an OF'er with Yount.

Kinda surprising.

Fan174 wrote:

bobadgers wrote:I'm old enough to clearly remember the Molitor/Yount days.

I'd take Molitor/Yount in a HEARTBEAT over Braun/Prince........The defense is just too much of an advantage. Tulowitzki/Longoria would be a decent comparison, and I'd rather have them over Braun/Prince. But, Braun/Prince is a GREAT consolation prize.

But, it's nice to have had both of those combinations in my lifetime.

That's really pushing it. Molitor, though a favorite of mine wasn't anywhere NEAR Longoria defensively, and Yount..as good as he was, was not the defender Tulo was.


And actually...looking at fangraphs and baseball reference, they both have Yount as being pretty damn bad defensively. Kinda surprising. GREAT in '81, good in '82, well below average other than that. In fact, Braun compares as an OF'er with Yount.

Kinda surprising.

Yeah, probably not the best comparison, but for people who never saw Molitor/Yount, I was trying to find something at least in the ballpark.

bobadgers wrote:Yeah, probably not the best comparison, but for people who never saw Molitor/Yount, I was trying to find something at least in the ballpark.

Yeah, I knew they weren't THAT good defensively, but I really thought Yount was better than his numbers suggest.

I mean....shit, if he's on par with Braun as an OF'er and actually..by the numbers worse defensively...I know he had that great two year stretch at SS, but that has me KIIINDA rethinking this...just a bit. Molly wasn't a great defender, so...just to play devils advocate, if Braun and Yount equal each other out defensively, and Braun's better offensively, then does Molitors defense..which from the looks of it was the best of all 4 make up for the difference in he and Prince's offense?

I don't know. From the eye test Molitor and Yount get the nod, but I was pretty young watching them.

Fan174 wrote:And actually...looking at fangraphs and baseball reference, they both have Yount as being pretty damn bad defensively. Kinda surprising. GREAT in '81, good in '82, well below average other than that. In fact, Braun compares as an OF'er with Yount.

Total Zone on FanGraphs has Yount having negative defensive value in only 3 of his 11 years, with an average of slightly over +2 runs saved a year at SS. That includes two huge outliers--'75 where he was -22, and '81 where he was +19. Take the two outlier years out and he's got an average of slightly over +3 runs saved a year. He was terrible in the outfield, but according to Total Zone, he was a pretty good SS.

sausagepeteza wrote:

Fan174 wrote:And actually...looking at fangraphs and baseball reference, they both have Yount as being pretty damn bad defensively. Kinda surprising. GREAT in '81, good in '82, well below average other than that. In fact, Braun compares as an OF'er with Yount.

Total Zone on FanGraphs has Yount having negative defensive value in only 3 of his 11 years, with an average of slightly over +2 runs saved a year at SS. That includes two huge outliers--'75 where he was -22, and '81 where he was +19. Take the two outlier years out and he's got an average of slightly over +3 runs saved a year. He was terrible in the outfield, but according to Total Zone, he was a pretty good SS.

Right, I guess I was looking at the total, -47 and going with that for his career. He was exceptional in '81.

And just to get a little more pointless, just IMAGINE if we had Molitor and Yount on this team?
1-Paul Molitor 3B
2-Robin Yount SS
3-Ryan Braun LF
4-Prince Fielder 1B
5-Rickie Weeks 2B
6-Corey Hart RF
7-Carlos Gomez CF
8-Jon Lucroy C

That's a VERY good defensive team and a lineup that rivals any lineup of the last 50 years in baseball quite frankly.

I forgot about this part from Fan......

Molitor/Yount/Braun/Fielder/Weeks ALL in their prime at the same time........And, if you wanted more offense, you could put Stormin' Gormin in CF over Gomez.....

Oglivie could be the PH. EDIT: CECIL COOPER. Although Oglivie is one of my all-time favorites.

Yount > Molly > Braun > Prince

With the differences in the times and the shitty way defensive value is calculated from the past I don't know if WAR is the best way to compare these guys.

Fan174 wrote:So as we all know, Braun and Prince are clearly superior hitters through their age 26/27 seasons than Molitor and Yount were over the course of their entire careers.

I don't know if I agree with that. Look at Yount in 82 compared to the rest of the league. He led everyone in OPS that year at 0.957. His OPS+ was 166, which Prince has tied and Braun has never achived.

Taking out defense, but adjusting for position and the time he played in his VORP was an unheard of 110.3. His '82 season belongs in the conversation of greatest seasons of all time.

Anyway, I am just trying to say that with the positions Molly and Yount played and the times in which they played have to be weighted a little more heavily than I think people are realizing.

shirt wrote:Yount > Molly > Braun > Prince

With the differences in the times and the shitty way defensive value is calculated from the past I don't know if WAR is the best way to compare these guys.

Fan174 wrote:So as we all know, Braun and Prince are clearly superior hitters through their age 26/27 seasons than Molitor and Yount were over the course of their entire careers.

I don't know if I agree with that. Look at Yount in 82 compared to the rest of the league. He led everyone in OPS that year at 0.957. His OPS+ was 166, which Prince has tied and Braun has never achived.

Taking out defense, but adjusting for position and the time he played in his VORP was an unheard of 110.3. His '82 season belongs in the conversation of greatest seasons of all time.

Anyway, I am just trying to say that with the positions Molly and Yount played and the times in which they played have to be weighted a little more heavily than I think people are realizing.

I agree. Position is VERY important when comparing. Such as with the '82 team. They had Oglivie/Cooper in LF/1B compared to McGehee/Betancourt 3B/SS on this team. As almost evteryone would agree, finding productive players at LF/1B is much easier than 3B/SS.

Now, Braun and Fielder are in the elite at their positions, but the gap isn't as great with the rest of the league as Molitor/Yount at 3B/SS with the rest of the league. And it was even more of a gap in that era. Yount/Ripken changed the way Shortstops are being developed.

And, from watching them, I thought both Molitor and Yount were plus defenders in the early 80's. Yount wasn't once he moved to CF, but he was still serviceable.

This is a great discussion. They're BOTH great combinations.

shirt wrote:Yount > Molly > Braun > Prince

With the differences in the times and the shitty way defensive value is calculated from the past I don't know if WAR is the best way to compare these guys.

Fan174 wrote:So as we all know, Braun and Prince are clearly superior hitters through their age 26/27 seasons than Molitor and Yount were over the course of their entire careers.

I don't know if I agree with that. Look at Yount in 82 compared to the rest of the league. He led everyone in OPS that year at 0.957. His OPS+ was 166, which Prince has tied and Braun has never achived.

Taking out defense, but adjusting for position and the time he played in his VORP was an unheard of 110.3. His '82 season belongs in the conversation of greatest seasons of all time.

Anyway, I am just trying to say that with the positions Molly and Yount played and the times in which they played have to be weighted a little more heavily than I think people are realizing.

Right, but that's Yount's peak year. I'm just saying an average year for Molitor and Yount is vastly inferior to a average year to Braun and Prince. We're already accounting for defense which is why those two get the nod, so I wasn't taking that into consideration. Just straight up comparing their lines.


And Shirt, who isn't realizing it? I think EVERYONE has addressed it and taken them for that very reason. We get it, that's why not a single person has taken the two offensive juggernauts.

bobadgers wrote:

And just to get a little more pointless, just IMAGINE if we had Molitor and Yount on this team?
1-Paul Molitor 3B
2-Robin Yount SS
3-Ryan Braun LF
4-Prince Fielder 1B
5-Rickie Weeks 2B
6-Corey Hart RF
7-Carlos Gomez CF
8-Jon Lucroy C

That's a VERY good defensive team and a lineup that rivals any lineup of the last 50 years in baseball quite frankly.

I forgot about this part from Fan......

Molitor/Yount/Braun/Fielder/Weeks ALL in their prime at the same time........And, if you wanted more offense, you could put Stormin' Gormin in CF over Gomez.....

Oglivie could be the PH. EDIT: CECIL COOPER. Although Oglivie is one of my all-time favorites.

I think we're hitting on why the '82 team had a much better lineup. We're talking about Prince vs the two greatest Brewers of all time, and he may very well not be the best 1st basemen on the two teams. Cecil Cooper was fucking good, AND he was a defensive stud as well.

And in LF, you're not missing a whole lot going from Braun to Oglive...I mean, you are, but it's not Yount to Betancourt...