Maybe I should make this a poll. Only I don't know who is really in consideration. Obviously Hillary, and I think John Edwards and some folks from Virginia. Should he take Hillary?

I say NO! While I don't hate her (and by the way, I'm a pretty big liberal), I think she would actually hurt his campaign. She's too much of a lightning rod.

I'd love to see Edwards or Joseph Biden. I've always been a Biden fan, as well as Obama fan. I knew this guy would be getting my vote 4 years ago, after he spoke at the DNC.

adminnote:Admin Note: Not a heated argument, but still full of debate. It starts out as any other old thread does, but then Fan goes off with a short essay for reply #1. He would go on to write several more essays as would a few others. This thread lacks the immaturity that so many of our other threads have...starting with this one.

Yea, I'm actually a pretty big Biden fan myself. He's kinda a McCain-esque Liberal in that he doesn't always follow party lines.

I will say this, I think it's a pretty god damn encouraging election. I think no matter who wins, Obama or McCain, they're going to do good for the country. I think it's a little sickening that McCain has had to pander to the religious right speaking at Robertson's and Farwell's schools the last couple years, but that's what he has to do in order to win. He could be the guy that everyone likes and respects for NOT selling out while he's out of the race, or he could sell out a little bit and whore himself out I guess. That was by the way something he was hell bent against for several years.

The guy I really think should run with Obama is Gore. No rule saying you can't be VP more than 2 terms(is there?...I don't think there is).

Then again, he's kinda a lightning rod as well. It's funny, I read the Republican Noise machine and it talks about how Republicans have all these ways of manipulating perception. The think tanks which are GOP funded, but labeled as think tanks to give them this undue credibility, the Dredge report, how they have these talking points that they beat to death and how they put it out there that the media is liberal(often on Fox news, how's that for ironic).

Well, you can see that play out in real life pretty clearly with Al Gore last time and them mocking him for the whole "he claimed he invented the internet" thing which he NEVER said. He said he was instrumental in passing legislation that brought the internet to the forefront which is absolutely true.


I also think the whole fact that he's a leading voice about Global Warming and how so many Republicans now think that Global Warming is this liberal myth, which by the way is really scary, is a great selling point. By the way, touching on that for a second, I don't get it. It's not a question, it's a fact. Global Warming is here, and it's by far the most immediate and dyer issue that we face. It's not like we're talking about not having social security, we're talking about the fucking Earth heating up to about 700K(not sure how hot, but that's the temp for other planets with runaway Greenhouse). But lets look at who has the motivation to lie here?

The liberals? What's they're end? What do they stand to gain? The world NOT ending? Gee...how selfish of them.

The Republicans. Lets see, how about the Auto industry for one? Lets just combine the Auto and Oil industries into one group of ridiculously huge, giant, mega-powerful lobbyists. If Global Warming is genearlly accepted, then clearly the American People are going to press for reform on carbon emmisions from vehicles.

How about the cattle industry? Since the whole Automobile aspect is tiny when compared with the toxic effect of millions of cows ass dropping, they've got a little reason to try and fight it.

In the end though, what the fuck are they fighting for? The educated Republicans know there is Global Warming. Is that money really going to mean that much to you when you're fucking dead because the planet is fucked.



And the worst part? 8 years ago when I voted for Bush I thought, "man, how bad could Gore fuck up this country". Now I look at it like...what the fuck could any president actually do to fuck things up WORSE. I mean, is it possible? Given that a president doesn't have absolute control, is it possible for a President to fuck up any worse and leave our country in any WORSE shape than he found it? Going from a surplus(yearly) under Clinton to a deficit. Rumsefield cuts the military by 500K so he can hire Halliburton to clean out the shitters overseas. We borrow 250 BILLION a year from China. We've spent well over one TRILLION on a war attacking a country that DIDN'T-EVEN-ATTACK-US.

And we've also made Iran now hate us. Iran, one of the most Western-friendly nations...a nation that had a less than 10 pct approval rating of that crazy fuck Immadouchajob(clearly Im kidding, but I don't know how to spell his name). In fact, the entire world hates us now. Our approval ratings all around the world are in the teens and 20's(where we're popular).

Anyway, sorry for going on a rant there, but this country's fucking screwed right now, and I feel like we've all been given some vicious hand jobs the last 7+years. That we've been lied to and fucked with time and time again. So much for Bush and company being conventional Republican's..you know, the small Gov't and fiscal responsibility. They've increased the size of the Gov't more than any president had since FDR(and he kinda had to) and they've sent records for 7 straight years in spending and our national deficit. So much for that. AT least McCain's a real, true conservative.

Oh yea, and before anyone gets all excited and starts complaining about Democrats thinking they're going to argue with me, the only difference between Dem's and Republicans is that a Democrat will sneak up and fuck you in the ass while a Republican will look you right in the eyes and then face fuck the shit out of you.

The point, they're both out to fuck you, one's just a little more subtle about it, and one's so fucking brazen they don't really even care if you see it coming cause you ain't gonna stop it!

Gore never really entered my mind. That could be a good choice. The guy is a freaking rockstar now, thanks to his global warming work. And I honestly think his movie (which I never saw, figured I'd get way too depressed) brought the environmental/green movement to the forefront more than anything ever could. I mean, everything is "green" now. I've been an environmental/wildlife "activist" for years, and there was very little talk about climate change and green living before "An Inconvenient Truth". And if there was talk, it was about how global warming is debatable or a liberal myth.

But yeah, Bush fucked us over in so many ways. I was highly, highly against him from the beginning, just for the fact that he hates wilderness and wildlife and is in the pocket of companies that destroy everything I hold sacred. But amazingly he turned out so much worse than I expected! Didn't see the war and the money and lives we've thrown away coming. I was soooo disappointed in America when he got re-elected. Actually, I was also disappointed in the Democratic Party for throwing Kerry against him. Really? He was the best we could do?

McCain is probably my favorite Republican, so I could be okay with him in the White House. Hell, no one can be worse than Bush, can they?

What scares me the most from a personal standpoint is what Bush is going to do in his last few weeks in office. Clinton set aside a ton of land for roadless areas, and I get the feeling Bush is going to reverse that and put oil wells/mines every freaking place he can. Wouldn't be surprised to see exploratory drilling in our national parks, if Bush had his way.

I would like to see Obama pick Jim Webb, the senator from VA. He could help neutralize the vote among veterans(he was also in Vietnam, and now walks with a limp; plus, i believe he has or had a son in Iraq.) Obama might not go with him though, because he just got elected in '06, and one of the biggest arguments against Obama is his lack of experience, so he may pick somebody with a lot of experiance, i.e. Biden, who I would be fine with.

8 words

anyone____but____al____gore,____hes_____a______fucking_____retard

gobrewers2213 wrote:8 words

anyone____but____al____gore,____hes_____a______fucking_____retard

And why is that? Seriously, what the fuck makes him a fucking retard? Because the talking heads say he is?

Because he makes comments and the Republican Noise Machine latches onto a idea and they run with it? Al Gore would have made SOOO much better a president than Bush it's not even funny. Honestly, I don't think I'm more ashamed about anything than voting for George Bush. It's just embarrassing.

RyGuy wrote:Gore never really entered my mind. That could be a good choice. The guy is a freaking rockstar now, thanks to his global warming work. And I honestly think his movie (which I never saw, figured I'd get way too depressed) brought the environmental/green movement to the forefront more than anything ever could. I mean, everything is "green" now. I've been an environmental/wildlife "activist" for years, and there was very little talk about climate change and green living before "An Inconvenient Truth". And if there was talk, it was about how global warming is debatable or a liberal myth.

But yeah, Bush fucked us over in so many ways. I was highly, highly against him from the beginning, just for the fact that he hates wilderness and wildlife and is in the pocket of companies that destroy everything I hold sacred. But amazingly he turned out so much worse than I expected! Didn't see the war and the money and lives we've thrown away coming. I was soooo disappointed in America when he got re-elected. Actually, I was also disappointed in the Democratic Party for throwing Kerry against him. Really? He was the best we could do?

McCain is probably my favorite Republican, so I could be okay with him in the White House. Hell, no one can be worse than Bush, can they?

What scares me the most from a personal standpoint is what Bush is going to do in his last few weeks in office. Clinton set aside a ton of land for roadless areas, and I get the feeling Bush is going to reverse that and put oil wells/mines every freaking place he can. Wouldn't be surprised to see exploratory drilling in our national parks, if Bush had his way.

Yea, I kinda went on a rant, but Jesus Christ...this world just isn't going to be here much longer the way we're just trashing it. And once we do pass that breaking point with the runaway greenhouse effect, it's just going to be sitting here waiting to burn up for the next 20 years or however long it will take. And I love the hard core Republicans who say it's a "liberal conspiracy". What the FUCK does the left have to gain?

I mean, I know I already made this point, but what do they have to gain? What, a fucking world that doesn't get ruined? What does the Right have to gain? Trillions and Trillions of dollars. Plus, what the FUCK, which way do you want to ere here? I'd like to ere on the side of caution and just assume that it IS(if I didn't know the absolute facts and how it's really beyond dispute) because if you do that, the WORST that happen if you have a planet in better shape. If you go the other way, the worst that happens is the end of human fucking life....at least on this planet.


And I agree, I am pretty disgusted with the American Public. If you're a Republican and you're rich, that's fine. Protect your wealth. Hell, my family has a little bit of money and they're Republicans....they're also all against Bush now, but again, that's fine. If you're poor, or just middle class and you're voting GOP right now you're a fucking idiot. I'm sorry to anyone who may read this, but go out and pay attention. How do they help you? They have this way of making each election about one issue that's not going to change, OR effect you whatsoever.

No, things couldn't be any worse than they are right now under Bush. They've wasted Hundreds of Billions of dollars with these no bid military contracts that could have been spent actually protecting our ports and our people. We've spent Trillions on a war that's not going anywhere and even if it does, so what?

We've got this arrogance about Democracy, yet how many times has a country held democratic elections and elected someone and then we didn't like them and we just stepped in and said, "nah, doesn't count". The Shah of Iran? How about Vietnam?


And yea, what Bush does the last couple weeks is going to be huge. It's going to be just absolutely terrifying. Nothing is sacred to that man. Nothing at all. He's in the pockets of the Oil Company's and the Defense company's.


It's just really scary and so many people get their news from Fox and only Fox. I love the part where people say that all college kids and teachers are liberal. Does anyone think that MIGHT have something to do with EDUCATION!!!


No, honestly, my biggest problem is with the hypocrites in the GOP now. Conservatives were built on a couple principles. Smaller Government and Fiscal Responsibility. No President since FDR has increased the size of the Gov't more, and no President has EVER spent more money than Bush, and borrowed more than Bush. Never. It's absolutely sickening. These fucking cocksuckers are not Republicans. McCain at least is.


To be honest, I'm not even sure who I want to win. I could be alright with McCain.

Ignorance Assassin wrote:Oh yea, and before anyone gets all excited and starts complaining about Democrats thinking they're going to argue with me, the only difference between Dem's and Republicans is that a Democrat will sneak up and fuck you in the ass while a Republican will look you right in the eyes and then face fuck the shit out of you.

The point, they're both out to fuck you, one's just a little more subtle about it, and one's so fucking brazen they don't really even care if you see it coming cause you ain't gonna stop it!

Holy Cow, come up for air Fan, Ha ha just kidding! Your quote above is so true, however, the old political saying is no one votes for the vice president, so I expect both to pick someone who no one expects and in some cases has heard of with no skeletons in the closet. If Obama picks Hilary, that is a sign he has no backbone, and will cave into pressure. I am old enough to feel that it dosent matter who is president, because only a selfish egomaniac would want that job. I hope I am wrong, about that also. And it is funny what you said about Iran, I have a buddy who is from Tehran, I call him The "sleeper cell", all he does is drink, play poker, golf and go to strip joints! An obvious terrorist, and when he goes back to Tehran to visit his family every summer, they have air raid tests and anti aircraft guns on all the buildings because they are convinced of an american invasion. He says everyone wants to be like america, but the only news they get is from the goverment, so they dont get the truth!

A southerner, probably, more than likely from a battleground state. Jim Webb certainly fits that profile very nicely.

It won't be Clinton. That would just be gifting the Republicans a chance to win in November.

Gore has a lot more influence now as a rock star/activist than he ever did as the Vice President, so I can't imagine he'd want to subjugate himself to that again.

FYP wrote:

Ignorance Assassin wrote:Oh yea, and before anyone gets all excited and starts complaining about Democrats thinking they're going to argue with me, the only difference between Dem's and Republicans is that a Democrat will sneak up and fuck you in the ass while a Republican will look you right in the eyes and then face fuck the shit out of you.

The point, they're both out to fuck you, one's just a little more subtle about it, and one's so fucking brazen they don't really even care if you see it coming cause you ain't gonna stop it!

Holy Cow, come up for air Fan, Ha ha just kidding! Your quote above is so true, however, the old political saying is no one votes for the vice president, so I expect both to pick someone who no one expects and in some cases has heard of with no skeletons in the closet. If Obama picks Hilary, that is a sign he has no backbone, and will cave into pressure. I am old enough to feel that it dosent matter who is president, because only a selfish egomaniac would want that job. I hope I am wrong, about that also. And it is funny what you said about Iran, I have a buddy who is from Tehran, I call him The "sleeper cell", all he does is drink, play poker, golf and go to strip joints! An obvious terrorist, and when he goes back to Tehran to visit his family every summer, they have air raid tests and anti aircraft guns on all the buildings because they are convinced of an american invasion. He says everyone wants to be like america, but the only news they get is from the goverment, so they dont get the truth!

C'mon, that's a bit cynical don't you think? Don't you think some get into it to actually change things? Sure, there's an egotistical aspect to it, but that doesn't mean that there aren't still great leaders out there.

I also think that the VP in this election is going to be a far bigger deal than you're making it out to be and that it's been in the past. For instance, if Huckabee is the VP running with McCain that'll make my choice right there because I don't want anyone who thinks the Earth is 6-fucking-thousand years old one Heart Attack away from being the President.

Religion is great, but it's not a basis to Govern a Nation, and that's why Huckabee and the crazy Religious right zealots shouldn't be in power. Again, having faith, perfectly fine. Using the bible to dictate how you run a country, not a good one. Especially with the way people interpret the religious writings.

Finally, I don't think running with Hillary would be folding to anyone. I think it'd allow the right a real chance to win, but the thing that annoys me is when people hate her and they don't even know why. Just...she's a bitch. She's cold. Really? And if she was emotional, she'd be ripped for that. There's a giant bias against Hillary, and it's a little bit overblown.

Yeah, fan, I am cynical, I voted for Clinton twice, then, Bush twice, so now I feel like I had 2 girlfriends who bath cheated on me and I have to pick one to marry! Leaves you a little cynical thats for sure. dosent help I am a glass is half empty person also. As of his moment I would vote Democrat, just for the reason, with control of both houses and the presidency, it would be nice to see if anything gets done, now with not road blocks. Hell we cant screw things up worse! Well i certainly hope not! My Iranian buddy likes Obama! Maybe he is part of his sleeper cell! I will ask him when I see him at Silk on Friday!

As someone who has never voted for the dems it scares me to think that if Clinton is the running mate it's a guaranteed win, heck it may be the biggest landslide in history. The dems had an easy win in 2004 but choose a guy who failed to focus on making up 'fake plans' for the issues that were of most concern to Americans at the time (namely how to get out of Iraq)--the election was handed to Dems on a silver plate and they failed to take it

As for the claims that if you are lower class or middle class how can you vote for the GOP. My answer is this: farmers.

Ignorance Assassin wrote:

RyGuy wrote:Gore never really entered my mind. That could be a good choice. The guy is a freaking rockstar now, thanks to his global warming work. And I honestly think his movie (which I never saw, figured I'd get way too depressed) brought the environmental/green movement to the forefront more than anything ever could. I mean, everything is "green" now. I've been an environmental/wildlife "activist" for years, and there was very little talk about climate change and green living before "An Inconvenient Truth". And if there was talk, it was about how global warming is debatable or a liberal myth.

But yeah, Bush fucked us over in so many ways. I was highly, highly against him from the beginning, just for the fact that he hates wilderness and wildlife and is in the pocket of companies that destroy everything I hold sacred. But amazingly he turned out so much worse than I expected! Didn't see the war and the money and lives we've thrown away coming. I was soooo disappointed in America when he got re-elected. Actually, I was also disappointed in the Democratic Party for throwing Kerry against him. Really? He was the best we could do?

McCain is probably my favorite Republican, so I could be okay with him in the White House. Hell, no one can be worse than Bush, can they?

What scares me the most from a personal standpoint is what Bush is going to do in his last few weeks in office. Clinton set aside a ton of land for roadless areas, and I get the feeling Bush is going to reverse that and put oil wells/mines every freaking place he can. Wouldn't be surprised to see exploratory drilling in our national parks, if Bush had his way.

Yea, I kinda went on a rant, but Jesus Christ...this world just isn't going to be here much longer the way we're just trashing it. And once we do pass that breaking point with the runaway greenhouse effect, it's just going to be sitting here waiting to burn up for the next 20 years or however long it will take. And I love the hard core Republicans who say it's a "liberal conspiracy". What the FUCK does the left have to gain?

I mean, I know I already made this point, but what do they have to gain? What, a fucking world that doesn't get ruined? What does the Right have to gain? Trillions and Trillions of dollars. Plus, what the FUCK, which way do you want to ere here? I'd like to ere on the side of caution and just assume that it IS(if I didn't know the absolute facts and how it's really beyond dispute) because if you do that, the WORST that happen if you have a planet in better shape. If you go the other way, the worst that happens is the end of human fucking life....at least on this planet.


And I agree, I am pretty disgusted with the American Public. If you're a Republican and you're rich, that's fine. Protect your wealth. Hell, my family has a little bit of money and they're Republicans....they're also all against Bush now, but again, that's fine. If you're poor, or just middle class and you're voting GOP right now you're a fucking idiot. I'm sorry to anyone who may read this, but go out and pay attention. How do they help you? They have this way of making each election about one issue that's not going to change, OR effect you whatsoever.

No, things couldn't be any worse than they are right now under Bush. They've wasted Hundreds of Billions of dollars with these no bid military contracts that could have been spent actually protecting our ports and our people. We've spent Trillions on a war that's not going anywhere and even if it does, so what?

We've got this arrogance about Democracy, yet how many times has a country held democratic elections and elected someone and then we didn't like them and we just stepped in and said, "nah, doesn't count". The Shah of Iran? How about Vietnam?


And yea, what Bush does the last couple weeks is going to be huge. It's going to be just absolutely terrifying. Nothing is sacred to that man. Nothing at all. He's in the pockets of the Oil Company's and the Defense company's.


It's just really scary and so many people get their news from Fox and only Fox. I love the part where people say that all college kids and teachers are liberal. Does anyone think that MIGHT have something to do with EDUCATION!!!


No, honestly, my biggest problem is with the hypocrites in the GOP now. Conservatives were built on a couple principles. Smaller Government and Fiscal Responsibility. No President since FDR has increased the size of the Gov't more, and no President has EVER spent more money than Bush, and borrowed more than Bush. Never. It's absolutely sickening. These fucking cocksuckers are not Republicans. McCain at least is.


To be honest, I'm not even sure who I want to win. I could be alright with McCain.

Political views to 95% of the population is monetary based. It's the whole adage that the middle class gets screwed in taxation. It's the biggest fallacy if I have ever seen one. Going off the top of my head on something I researched a month ago, 81% of the federal taxes are paid by the top 20% in terms of income. Now tax breaks for corporations now you got a point.

I am as hardcore Conservative as they come and I can't even support Bush at this point. I DO NOT necessarily think McCain is good for the party longterm. He is about as moderate as they come and outside of his war intentions is a liberal running on the conservative platform. Due to the extremism of Bush this is the ONLY guy that the Conservatives could have ran that could have a chance to keep the Presidency in the Reps hands.

I would have much rather have seen Romney or Huckabee but they were ousted by Bush more than anything. I really believe Ron Paul was the right man for this country but he never stood a chance

Obama will win this election hands down and I sure hope he does to protect a more conservative party as opposed to heading towards moderate viewpoints like McCain

Anybody but Clinton. They Rebublicans have let the hounds loose on Obama and not Clinton during the primary for a reason. Clinton is so dirty the whole campign would be spent defending her shady business deals and Bullshit politics.

What ever happend to her releasing her tax records? That kinda just fell away, but not if she is VP, they will rip her a new ass over her shady dealings.

Then there is the "experince" issue. They will rip her ass for not providing access to the records.

She is simply full of shit. Yes, she will bring the woman vote because they would vote for any woman. But remember, most woman are liberal any way. They dont want the Rebublicans deploying troops to their Uterus, so they stay Liberal.

I like Jonny Mac to and if there where ever a Republican i would vote for it would be him. He isnt your typical Guns & God nut job but doesn't hold the same values as me on many issues.

Whats funny is conservative arnt even fucking conservatives. The Dems are the new conservatives in many cases. Let the people make there choice and low govt spending right? So lets look at it:

Pro Choice - Nope, my faith knows whats right, you dont.

Stem Cell Research - Nope, my faith says thats wrong. I dont care if your faith is science, fuck off, you cant practice it here.

Gay marriage - Nope, Go to heel and burn sinner! My faith told me you are wrong.

Spending - This is the worst, they spend Trillions and cut taxes! What the fuck?

BrainDed wrote:I like Jonny Mac to and if there where ever a Republican i would vote for it would be him. He isnt your typical Guns & God nut job but doesn't hold the same values as me on many issues.

Whats funny is conservative arnt even fucking conservatives. The Dems are the new conservatives in many cases. Let the people make there choice and low govt spending right? So lets look at it:

Pro Choice - Nope, my faith knows whats right, you dont.

Stem Cell Research - Nope, my faith says thats wrong. I dont care if your faith is science, fuck off, you cant practice it here.

Gay marriage - Nope, Go to heel and burn sinner! My faith told me you are wrong.

Spending - This is the worst, they spend Trillions and cut taxes! What the fuck?

I can understand your points on the 1st 3 though may not necessarily agree but this last one I don't get.

I sure hope you know that some of the cutting of taxes are for corporations but also for the middle class of our society that gets more taxes back than they pay in. In reality the ones truly getting screwed on the tax cuts from the republican side of the government are those that would be labeled upper middle class or lower upper class. These are the people that should be saying 'what the fuck'.

My issue is when middle classers with no understanding of how the tax structure in the United States works gives me the 'middle class gets screwed in taxes' speech---it's far from the case. Not saying you are saying this or even implying it but this is a BIG measuring stick on when dealing with a liberal as to whether they are going to have understanding of something that doesn't support their agenda.

I had 2 VERY liberal professors in college and I am very conservative. 1 showed understanding, was open to viewpoints different than his own and in all honesty was an asset and a half to UW-L.

The other clown was a complete bigot who graded based on whether you wrote to what he wanted to hear or not. These are the guys that are useless to a university setting.

What it gets down to is if you understand, not necessarily agree with the other side, you can have good conversations and learn stuff from the other side. In essence say to yourself, 'I would have never looked at it that way'

Unfortunately, too many people care about their own agendas and aren't willing to listen to those that are different than them

"These are the people that should be saying 'what the fuck'."

Oh i agree 100%. I'm middle class and i dont pay shit for taxes because I am a first time home owner with a shitty rate. The point is/was, conservatives are not sapose to spend more. The fact that they have spent like nobody before them and cut taxes is the wtf.

"Unfortunately, too many people care about their own agendas and aren't willing to listen to those that are different than them "

Thats the case with most people on almost every topic, from politics to baseball. See i understand that whats best for me might not always be best for someone else. But at this stage of my life, I am no position to be a philanthropist. So i vote for whats best for me, fuck you guys... lol Seriously though, it's not often that someone can conceed a point and yet respectfully disagree.

BrainDed wrote:"These are the people that should be saying 'what the fuck'."

Oh i agree 100%. I'm middle class and i dont pay shit for taxes because I am a first time home owner with a shitty rate. The point is/was, conservatives are not sapose to spend more. The fact that they have spent like nobody before them and cut taxes is the wtf.

"Unfortunately, too many people care about their own agendas and aren't willing to listen to those that are different than them "

Thats the case with most people on almost every topic, from politics to baseball. See i understand that whats best for me might not always be best for someone else. But at this stage of my life, I am no position to be a philanthropist. So i vote for whats best for me, fuck you guys... lol Seriously though, it's not often that someone can conceed a point and yet respectfully disagree.

Should hear me talk about gay marriage. Had a conversation on how I was against it with a gay classmate. One of the best convos I had in a long time. It was nearly me and him bantering back and forth for an hour on this issue (in class)---still keep in touch with him. Good guy we just didn't agree on it but I believe at the end it was a 'respectfully disagree'. It does happen when someone can 'see the other side' just not necessarily agree---

Unfortunately, most people in our society are too narrow minded to see the other side of an issue.