So rhetorical scenario here.


We're 5-1. We're rolling, but we've faced the easier part of our schedule. Harris tries to come back, but he's just not the same player he was.

We're winning games by winning blowouts, but we are NOT stopping teams defensively because they're throwing the ball all over us.


With the trade deadline coming up, a couple games vs the Vikings, Cowboys and other team teams coming up, would you consider making a trade with a future 1st round pick?


Lets say a team like the Denver Bronco's are out of it(Champ Bailey) or the Oakland Raiders(Nnamdi Asomugha) are BOTH put on the market.


For Bailey, since he's about 33 years old, but is STILL one of the best in the game, BUT is an upcoming Free AGent, would you trade a 1st round pick for him?


Nnamdi is much younger, BUT he signed a 3 year 48 million dollar deal, and while being IMO the BEST PURE-COVER man in the NFL is he worth it?


PLUS with him, you'd LIKELY have to give up a 1st rounder in the 2011 draft and then lets say for arguments sake, you have to give up a 1st in 2012 BUT you get a 3rd rounder back in '11 and a 4th back in '12.


Would you guys do that? Would you basically SELL OUT and give up 2 FIRST ROUND PICKS in order to get one of the top FIVE corners in the game, giving you TWO of the top 5 in the game?

That would give you a secondary of

Bailey T. Williams Harris Woodson



Nick Collins Morgan Burnett

With guys like

Shields, Underwood, Lee and Blackmon at CB
And then
Bigby, Martin, Blackmon at S.

Fan174 wrote:For Bailey, since he's about 33 years old, but is STILL one of the best in the game, BUT is an upcoming Free AGent, would you trade a 1st round pick for him?

No

Fan174 wrote:Nnamdi is much younger, BUT he signed a 3 year 48 million dollar deal, and while being IMO the BEST PURE-COVER man in the NFL is he worth it?


PLUS with him, you'd LIKELY have to give up a 1st rounder in the 2011 draft and then lets say for arguments sake, you have to give up a 1st in 2012 BUT you get a 3rd rounder back in '11 and a 4th back in '12

Yes

Well the trade deadline is October 19th after Week 6 and we won't even have had a look at Harris in practice. So it's going to be really hard to know what we've got with him until it's too late to make a deal. I'm sure the coaches will have some idea, but not much until he really gets back in action. If we're already 5-1 at that point, I probably say screw trading, we're rolling and have, presumably, depth returning in Harris and Bigby.

Asomugha though would probably be worth it anyway though having him the next 3 years so I'd do that. I wouldn't give up a 1st for a Bailey rental, though.

As was suggested on the ESPN board, they should make the deal for Nmandi now, and send back Spitz, Barbre, D. Lee, Jarrett Bush and a conditional 4th round pick in 2013....

Seriously though, if the Raiders would take ANY (or all) of those guys rather than an additional 1st rounder, I'd do it in a heartbeat, and do it ASAP. Regardless of Harris' being able to come back or not, he's not getting any younger, and neither is Woodson.

Not sure about Bailey...maybe if the deal happened in the next week or 2. Then again, TT just wastes 1st round picks anyway, right...?

Ziffer wrote:hen again, TT just wastes 1st round picks anyway, right...?

2010 - Buloga.. Still open.. Looks good.
2009 - BJ Raji.. Still open.. Not #9 overall pick impact yet.
2008 - No first..
2007 - Justin Fucking Harrell.. Dispite what fan tells you, this was a horrendous pick.
2006 - AJ Hawk. Not a bad pick, but he hasnt lived up to a #5 overall impact.
2005 - A Rodg.. This makes up for any other 1rst round mistake.

BrainDed wrote:

Ziffer wrote:hen again, TT just wastes 1st round picks anyway, right...?

2010 - Buloga.. Still open.. Looks good.
2009 - BJ Raji.. Still open.. Not #9 overall pick impact yet.
2008 - No first..
2007 - Justin Fucking Harrell.. Dispite what fan tells you, this was a horrendous pick.
2006 - AJ Hawk. Not a bad pick, but he hasnt lived up to a #5 overall impact.
2005 - A Rodg.. This makes up for any other 1rst round mistake.

...I was kidding.

2010 - Agree on all counts.
2009 - Agreed.
2008 - What did they do w/their 08 1st rounder?
2007 - Key word "was" Easy to look back after a miserable string of injuries (not counting the one he had his final year @ Tenn) and say that.
2006 - Agreed for the most part. He was the "safe" pick though, considering Mario Williams and Bush were off the board (and I maintain that Bush was NOT and IS not the game-changer everyone claimed he would be coming out of college).
2005 - Agreed, although some will argue to the death that TT ran Favre out of town by drafting Rodgers, and GB would have at least 2 more SB wins with #4.

"not counting the one he had his final year @ Tenn) and say that. "

But his college performance, or lack there of, is what you have to judge if the pick was warranted. It must be considered. Its the same thing that makes Hawk an ok pick at #5 even though he hasn't produced.

Ziffer wrote:although some will argue to the death that TT ran Favre out of town by drafting Rodgers, and GB would have at least 2 more SB wins with #4.

Some are delusional. I would argue # 4 kept us out of 2 SuperBowls.

Clay Matthews was a 1st too, definitely an impact player.

If the Raiders would gives us Nnamdi for Spitz + 2 guys that are on the fence for making the roster + 1 guy who won't + a conditional 4th, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't think the Raiders would go for it.

adambr2 wrote:Clay Matthews was a 1st too, definitely an impact player.

Ahh yes,, thank you, forgot about Clay because he was the 2nd 1rst round pick.

adambr2 wrote:If the Raiders would gives us Nnamdi for Spitz + 2 guys that are on the fence for making the roster + 1 guy who won't + a conditional 4th, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't think the Raiders would go for it.

It sounds asinine.. But.... if any team was dumb enough.. Raiders.

BrainDed wrote:

Fan174 wrote:For Bailey, since he's about 33 years old, but is STILL one of the best in the game, BUT is an upcoming Free AGent, would you trade a 1st round pick for him?

No

Fan174 wrote:Nnamdi is much younger, BUT he signed a 3 year 48 million dollar deal, and while being IMO the BEST PURE-COVER man in the NFL is he worth it?


PLUS with him, you'd LIKELY have to give up a 1st rounder in the 2011 draft and then lets say for arguments sake, you have to give up a 1st in 2012 BUT you get a 3rd rounder back in '11 and a 4th back in '12

Yes

Yeah, truth be told, I'm not sure what the fuck I was thinking with Champ. I DO believe he could and will still be a great corner for another 1, a VERY good one for 2 more, but not worth the 2 1sts.

I think I convoluted that.

I'd give up the TWO firsts and then get back a 3rd and a 3rd perhaps in the '11 and '12 respectively for Nnamdi and sign him to a 7 year 90 million with 30 guaranteed deal.


Nnamdi Asomugha and Charles Woodson starting at CB.
Tramon Williams and Sam Shields at Nickel and Dime backs.
NIck Collins and Morgan Burnett at Safety.

For Champ I'd give up substantially less, though I'd still LOVE to add him. Lets say a 1st in '11 and we get back a 3rd, or a 2nd straight up. MAYBE a 1st depending on how good he looks.

adambr2 wrote:Well the trade deadline is October 19th after Week 6 and we won't even have had a look at Harris in practice. So it's going to be really hard to know what we've got with him until it's too late to make a deal. I'm sure the coaches will have some idea, but not much until he really gets back in action. If we're already 5-1 at that point, I probably say screw trading, we're rolling and have, presumably, depth returning in Harris and Bigby.

Asomugha though would probably be worth it anyway though having him the next 3 years so I'd do that. I wouldn't give up a 1st for a Bailey rental, though.

I didn't look that far into it, but that's not REALLY the point.

The POINT is this, we ARE good enough that we can win games and a lot of them with the team we've got RIGHT NOW. But in particular the first part of the season is particularly easy.

And last year we were 11-5(and rolling) and yet it wasn't good enough.


I'm NOT a "go nuts and sell out for right now" type of guy. For fucks sakes, I didn't even like the goddamn CC Sabathia trade and I've been a LIFELONG Brewers diehard fan who desperately wanted to get back to the playoffs, but I wanted more to see SEVERAL good years(Which we would be seeing with Greinke, but that's neither here nor there).

But this team is SOOOO good offensively......like Saints '09 good, like Pats '07 good, like Vikings '98 good IMO.

Our defense is SOLID. You add a Nnamdi Asomugha and we're a GREAT-GREAT defense. Not just good, but GREAT. Same with Champ Bailey, only you're only great for 2 years.

But I'd give up a LOT for Nnamdi.



I'd ALSO give up a future 1st rounder for Chris Gamble.

Ziffer wrote:As was suggested on the ESPN board, they should make the deal for Nmandi now, and send back Spitz, Barbre, D. Lee, Jarrett Bush and a conditional 4th round pick in 2013....

Seriously though, if the Raiders would take ANY (or all) of those guys rather than an additional 1st rounder, I'd do it in a heartbeat, and do it ASAP. Regardless of Harris' being able to come back or not, he's not getting any younger, and neither is Woodson.

Not sure about Bailey...maybe if the deal happened in the next week or 2. Then again, TT just wastes 1st round picks anyway, right...?

I'm not trying to be a dick, but 100 pct, completely serious, is THIS a serious suggestion? That's maybe the worst trade idea I've seen(I'm guessing you're mocking ESPN a bit).

The Raiders would almost CERTAINLY have little interest in most of those players. AT least on this level.

Donald Lee-Solid player, but they've got Zach Miller. Miller's MUCH better.
Spitz-May start for them, but at BEST he's an average Center. He's actually very valuable to us as he gives us protection at the 3 interior spots.
Bush is a EXTREMELY talented kid who has EXTREMELY awful ball skills(though he's improved upon them quite frankly and MAY be showing SOME life....still, can't imagine the Raiders would want him as anything more than a #4/#5).
Babre is getting dumped.

And a #4? For Nnamdi?


No, the Raiders wouldn't get equal value in return, but we're talking at the VERY-VERY minimium a 1ST rounder for him and very possibly TWO 1st's and then we MAY get a 2nd/3rd back in return.

The BEST trade I could imagine for us would be our 2011 1st+Donald Lee(to backup Miller)+Spitz+Tramon Williams+2012 2nd rounder for Nnamdi and a 2011 3rd.



And the TT comment tells me that you're only about half serious here.

Ziffer wrote:

BrainDed wrote:

Ziffer wrote:hen again, TT just wastes 1st round picks anyway, right...?

2010 - Buloga.. Still open.. Looks good.
2009 - BJ Raji.. Still open.. Not #9 overall pick impact yet.
2008 - No first..
2007 - Justin Fucking Harrell.. Dispite what fan tells you, this was a horrendous pick.
2006 - AJ Hawk. Not a bad pick, but he hasnt lived up to a #5 overall impact.
2005 - A Rodg.. This makes up for any other 1rst round mistake.

...I was kidding.

2010 - Agree on all counts.
2009 - Agreed.
2008 - What did they do w/their 08 1st rounder?
2007 - Key word "was" Easy to look back after a miserable string of injuries (not counting the one he had his final year @ Tenn) and say that.
2006 - Agreed for the most part. He was the "safe" pick though, considering Mario Williams and Bush were off the board (and I maintain that Bush was NOT and IS not the game-changer everyone claimed he would be coming out of college).
2005 - Agreed, although some will argue to the death that TT ran Favre out of town by drafting Rodgers, and GB would have at least 2 more SB wins with #4.

'10 and '09 I agree with.
'08 they traded back for Jordy Nelson and then I BELIEVE picked up another 2nd used to select either Pat Lee or Brian Brohm. Nice looking moves at the time that have turned out JUST AWFUL. Brohm.....how does a guy go from a top 10 if he comes out a year earlier to just utter shit.
And Pat Lee's done NOTHING.

2007-Despite BrainDed almost NEVER being able to understand or read arguments he doesn't agree with and then turning around and whining about nobody's opinion counting but mine, I never argued that Harrell wasn't a bad pick.

I DID argue with some ignorant(ie, uninformed) comments about how huge of reach Harrell was, how NOBODY else would have taken him that high, and how he wasn't a good college player as NONE of them are true, in particular that he was a reach as he was a projected top 10 pick the previous summer, that nobody else would have taken him that high as there were several teams that had him graded as a #1, including the Bronco's who drafted immediately after, and he was a VERY good College player.

Obviously when a guy does nothing for you it's not a GOOD PICK, but if all you want to do is look back using revisionist history and say, "he sucked, it was stupid to pick him", it's almost not worth debating anything past that point. Yet I continue to do so when Berk....err...BrainDed tries.

I understand not wanting to draft Harrell and that he was a bad pick. BUT claiming he's the WORST pick the Packers have EVER made is pure ignorance. It's like saying that signing Riske was stupid. You NEED to go back to the TIME of the selection and evaluate it then, and yes, factor in what happened after, but only what is in control of the GM.


'06-I was absolutely fucking gagga over Bush. I thought he was Gayle Sayers and Barry Sanders wrapped up into one. He would be a GREAT fit for the Packers right now, but he is a mid to late 1st rounder if the draft's done again IMO.

Mario Williams was a BEAST.

AJ Hawk kinda fits into what I was talking about previously. BrainDed thinks the guys terrible, but at the time, he was the logical pick.

WORST case scenario he is what he is right now. An ABOVE average LB'er, probably about 10-14 Middle Backers who are better, but still good.

THIS year is his last real chance to prove he's a 1st round talent. He started out in the WORST position for any LB'er in the game to make plays, playing in our vanilla 4-3 as the WSLB'er where his ONLY job on running plays was to stay home and cut off the cutback lanes.

Still he had a VERY-VERY good 1st year. Decent 2nd, struggled in his 3rd. He moved inside where he was finally put in a position to make plays and was injured(apparently) and failed. But the move and the injuries were enough to give him another chance. Last year AGAIN playing the SILB'er he was in more of a playmakers position. He didn't make a lot of plays. MORE than he had, but not a lot.

THIS year he's already said he's going to try and be more than just the "steady-reliable" LB'er and try and take some chances for the big plays like he did at "t"OSU.

So we'll see what he does this year. He NEEDS to break out as Nick Barnett is slowed mightily after the knee and aging and is merely average right now.


Hawk's our best run stuffing LB'er, but isn't elite. He's improved exponentially in pass coverage, but he's still not great there. So he NEEDS to make the big tackles for loss in the running game and continue to improve his blitzing. There was a time he was great at that. He needs to get back there.


Without a Pro-Bowl caliber year he needs to be let go this year and NOT re-signed as he'll get overpaid. He's due 10 million this year. NOT worth close to that.

Truth is though as much of a "safe" pick as that was, and I DO like Hawk(if he were picked in the 2nd, we'd all love him), you NEVER take a MLB'er that high unless he's a SUPERSTAR and a freak or a great pass rusher. It's just not that important of a position...or maybe easier to replace is more appropriate.



'05- No, this was a GREAT-GREAT-GREAT pick and one that I didn't like at the time BECAUSE I was delusional and thought Favre was great.

Favre's cost this team a chance at a SB EVERY-SINGLE-TIME we've made it to the playoffs since our Super Bowl loss(actually the year after, but whatever).

He's been HISTORICALLY bad in the big games. Rodgers has not PROVEN to be great in them yet, but goddamn if he's not the TYPE that you can envision being GREAT with 2:20 on the clock in the Super Bowl. Just a steady, smart, reliable QB who's NEVER going to force balls in there.



I'll say this. If we had Aaron Rodgers from 2000-2008, this team may VERY-WELL have won MULTIPLE Super Bowls.



I LOVE Rodgers.

Fan174 wrote:

Ziffer wrote:As was suggested on the ESPN board, they should make the deal for Nmandi now, and send back Spitz, Barbre, D. Lee, Jarrett Bush and a conditional 4th round pick in 2013....

Seriously though, if the Raiders would take ANY (or all) of those guys rather than an additional 1st rounder, I'd do it in a heartbeat, and do it ASAP. Regardless of Harris' being able to come back or not, he's not getting any younger, and neither is Woodson.

Not sure about Bailey...maybe if the deal happened in the next week or 2. Then again, TT just wastes 1st round picks anyway, right...?

I'm not trying to be a dick, but 100 pct, completely serious, is THIS a serious suggestion? That's maybe the worst trade idea I've seen(I'm guessing you're mocking ESPN a bit).

The Raiders would almost CERTAINLY have little interest in most of those players. AT least on this level.

Donald Lee-Solid player, but they've got Zach Miller. Miller's MUCH better.
Spitz-May start for them, but at BEST he's an average Center. He's actually very valuable to us as he gives us protection at the 3 interior spots.
Bush is a EXTREMELY talented kid who has EXTREMELY awful ball skills(though he's improved upon them quite frankly and MAY be showing SOME life....still, can't imagine the Raiders would want him as anything more than a #4/#5).
Babre is getting dumped.

And a #4? For Nnamdi?


No, the Raiders wouldn't get equal value in return, but we're talking at the VERY-VERY minimium a 1ST rounder for him and very possibly TWO 1st's and then we MAY get a 2nd/3rd back in return.

The BEST trade I could imagine for us would be our 2011 1st+Donald Lee(to backup Miller)+Spitz+Tramon Williams+2012 2nd rounder for Nnamdi and a 2011 3rd.



And the TT comment tells me that you're only about half serious here.

I'm pretty sure that was the exact trade proposal, but one of us would have to look it up (it won't be me)...

I was in sarcastic mode with pretty much the entire comment, particularly the TT jab. Honestly though, as someone else said, if there is any team(management) out there tha would make a trade like that, it would have been Oakland(Al Davis).

2nd rounder next year for Champ Bailey RIGHT NOW, I'm all for it. The problem is, I have the feeling the Broncos think they have a shot...at...some...thing...this year, but I don't see it. No Brandon Marshall, no Dumervil, and while I like Kyle Orton, he's no Drew Brees, plus the issues w/their running game (everyone is hurt), and they obviously are convinced that they need to use Tebow and the wildcat.

There were a number of other picks in the 1st round of the '07 draft that have been major busts that you definitely can't call Harrell the worst of the lot especially when he's still on the team. And even if that's what he ends up as, busts happen. As long as you've got a solid hit/miss ratio, that's all you can really ask for.

The only thing that pissed me off about taking Harrell that draft is that the Browns were BEGGING someone to trade down to them so they could draft Brady Quinn. With no clear choice in the first, I wanted so much for us to do that for at least what the Cowboys ended up getting from the Browns for the 22nd pick, their 2nd rounder in that same draft and their 1st rounder in '08.

That pick ended up being the 22nd overall pick in '08, with Rashard Mendenhall, Chris Johnson, and Antoine Cason all still on the board. TT's early picks in '08 were pretty underwhelming, though he did get some nice picks later with Finley and Sitton and Flynn. Would have been nice to get that extra first that year, though. I cannot think of too many situations where if you are offered an unknown 1st rounder to drop from 16th to 36th, you shouldn't take it, especially for a guy who likes to build for the future. I was shocked given TT's tendencies that he didn't want to go that route.

Ziffer wrote:2nd rounder next year for Champ Bailey RIGHT NOW, I'm all for it. The problem is, I have the feeling the Broncos think they have a shot...at...some...thing...this year, but I don't see it. No Brandon Marshall, no Dumervil, and while I like Kyle Orton, he's no Drew Brees, plus the issues w/their running game (everyone is hurt), and they obviously are convinced that they need to use Tebow and the wildcat.

Yeah, frankly that's the impetus behind the "week 7" or whenever the deadline is as being the time of the trade.

I suspect the Broncos will struggle and may be willing to dump Champ. Same with the Panthers and Chris Gamble and the Raiders and Nnamdi.

The problem with the later is that Davis is SOOO fucking intent on winning while he's still alive that I don't think he wants to do ANYTHING that could hurt this team short term even if it's better long term.

adambr2 wrote:There were a number of other picks in the 1st round of the '07 draft that have been major busts that you definitely can't call Harrell the worst of the lot especially when he's still on the team. And even if that's what he ends up as, busts happen. As long as you've got a solid hit/miss ratio, that's all you can really ask for.

The only thing that pissed me off about taking Harrell that draft is that the Browns were BEGGING someone to trade down to them so they could draft Brady Quinn. With no clear choice in the first, I wanted so much for us to do that for at least what the Cowboys ended up getting from the Browns for the 22nd pick, their 2nd rounder in that same draft and their 1st rounder in '08.

That pick ended up being the 22nd overall pick in '08, with Rashard Mendenhall, Chris Johnson, and Antoine Cason all still on the board. TT's early picks in '08 were pretty underwhelming, though he did get some nice picks later with Finley and Sitton and Flynn. Would have been nice to get that extra first that year, though. I cannot think of too many situations where if you are offered an unknown 1st rounder to drop from 16th to 36th, you shouldn't take it, especially for a guy who likes to build for the future. I was shocked given TT's tendencies that he didn't want to go that route.

Well, I don't think the fact that he's still on the team is an argument in his FAVOR frankly as he's only still on the team as we've been able to stash him on IR the last couple years and finally this year without Jolly, and him FINALLY being healthy....and fuck, looking very good in the KC Game despite looking like shit in a couple other games, he has made the roster.

But BrainDed said he was the worst pick in PACKERS HISTORY and one of the worst picks EVER.

He was bad, not THAT bad.


2nd-The trade with the Browns, or lack thereof WAS very stupid and VERY frustrating at a Packers fan. That could have been HUGE for us.

You take AWAY a bad player for #17 overall and you add IN a top 10 pick. And you could have seen THAT one coming from a fucking MILE away. You KNEW the Browns would be bad that year(and frankly I don't recall if that was ACTUALLY the year they were decent and won 10 games or not, but AT-THE-TIME you "knew" or it was logical to conclude such).

3rd-AGAIN, not only will I NOT disagree that refusal to trade the 17th(I thought it was 17, you said 16, either way) for 36 AND a future 1st in the following year from a historically AWFUL franchise is a.....monumentally stupid fucking trade.

Antoine Cason was a guy I liked that year from AZ St and we've been in position to need a CB SINCE then even.




EITHER WAY, I do NOT want to see the Packers start a trend of going Redskins or Vikings mode and start trading pick after pick and signing high priced FA after high priced FA to try and win NOW.

I LOVE the way the Packers do things, ALWAYS thinking about the future because if you're always making moves for 3-4 years down the road, once you get to 3-4 years down the road(which we're at now) and you're loaded(like we are now) you can just allow it to build upon it self.

Who on this team is going to be gone next year? Maybe Cullen Jenkins, though I suspect he'll be re-signed, but beyond that, not a single, KEY contributor is likely to be gone.

And yet you've got a great drafting GM who can continue to bring in talent via the draft.



So I'm not suggesting we start making these trades every year and this WOULD hurt next year when we would have the chance to grab a good corner who's 21 years old, especially the kid from 'Bama who's 6'2 or the kid from one of the ACC schools, Clemson, SC, whatever who's 6'1 and both run 4.4's and are expected to be in the late 1st, HOWEVER, adding one of the best Corners in the NFL to the team we have RIGHT-NOW would be so monumentally huge given that this team has ONE weakness as I see it, ONE, our secondary and in PARTICULAR our #2 CB. Tramon as a #3 is great. Shields as a #4.....questionable, but he's impressed me. Bush and Underwood as #5/6's would be VERY-VERY good(despite that everyone unfairly HATES Bush....he did look good last game, setting the INT aside as it was a gift...although his ball skills are notoriously bad, so maybe that's a sign it's improving a TOUCH).


Without that CB, we're a good front 7, a GREAT starting RCB, a GREAT SS, a raw but very talented FS, and then a black hole at the other CB spot.


Now that MIGHT be good enough with our high powered Saints like offense, but it damn sure would be with another lock down, shut down corner.